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This interview was conducted in an area called "Worker Ville". It is separate from the public space of the festival. Workers, artists, musicians, and organizers use this area as their living, eating, and preparation space while at the festival. I talked to three people who consider themselves Trans allies but also supportive of the "women born women only" policy at Michigan. We sat outside at a picnic table and had this discussion.

Amy R. What are your names and what do you do?

Tami Rae Carland, I'm a teacher, an artist, and I own a record label.

Bitch, I'm a musician and general invocator.

Daniela, I'm a musician and an activist.

AR. So, alright...I want to know how you feel about Michigan's "women-born women only " policy and how the controversy over the policy has impacted your experience on the land when you're here and also when you leave. I also want to know if and how it's intersected with your performance.

Bitch. I'd say my stance basically is that I support the policy. I support women making their own boundaries for something they've created and how they want it to go down in the world. I came upon that after years of debating with myself and with other people. It just dawned on me that in our society it's so hard for us to accept women saying no to people. And that feels like the root of the issue for me - that this is a private gathering in a way, and it was set up by a small group of people who have this ideal that they want it to be like that, and I think that's OK. Also, I can't ignore the politics of entitlement around it, you know, how a lot of the issue, and I have noticed this in talking with my friends out at Camp Trans, a lot of the issues are around people born males. So, I find in this patriarchal system that so much of women's energy goes towards making men feel comfortable and satisfying men. This is hard to say... I'm not convinced that if there were problems with people born women being excluded from this space...I'm not so convinced that so many people would rally around them, trying to help them. I think there's a lot of entitlement at work. When I see protesters at my shows, generally the majority is not trans people. The majority of the protesters are fem girls, usually white students, and there's usually one M to F - it's all about them. So I can't ignore that dynamic and I think it's hard for people to tolerate, when they're raised in the patriarchy, it's hard for people to tolerate women saying no.

AR. And you think someone who's male-to-female, once they've transition to being female, you still consider that male birth to be a factor; you really distinguish between a woman who's born a woman and a woman who's born a man?

B. Yeah, there's a definite distinction. It doesn't mean that they're not a woman. If they want to be a woman, I'll call them a woman, I'll treat them as a woman, no problem. I don't have any problem with changing up my definitions of what a woman is. But, they're definitely not a woman like I'm a woman. It's a different kind of woman, just like a black woman is a totally different woman than me in a lot of ways. Simply based on our experiences in the world and how we spent our girlhoods. It's going to be totally different for somebody who's black, than for me, as a white girl. And how I walk into a deli in New York, I'm treated totally different than somebody who's black, you know? I think that a lot of what's projected onto us is by nature just completely different. And so yeah, a woman who was born as a man is definitely a totally different kind of woman than me.

AR. You want to comment on that Tami Rae?

Tami Rae C. I guess what I would say is that my defense, and it has been a defense because I've had to defend it, my defense of the policy has been that I, as a political person, believe that any group of people who have experienced systematic and systemic oppression, based on gender, sexuality, birth sex, color, able-ism, or what have you, that any group of people who have experienced that kind of legislated oppression have the right, in my book, to gather together culturally. I don't think we should create massive political systems based on separatism, but I think cultural events in which people gather for a limited amount of time to celebrate, organize and think and have feelings, really should be encouraged. And so I think that there is a gender that is woman-born woman. And I think that's what gets lost in this - people born biologically male or biologically female, I mean, it's a construct, you know? Just like race is a construct, and class is a construct. Gender is a construct and there are a lot of theoretical things going on. And then there are material things. In that when you're born, you know, totally crassly, when you're born, biologically with a cunt, and you're raised a girl and you're attempted to be feminized, whether it works or not, and you choose that identity, at a certain point you go, well yeah I am a woman, I am a girl, this is how I'm going to identify, and that that runs the spectrum – that that's a particular gender. And it's a different experience from my friends or my allies or my colleagues who were born biologically male and transitioned – surgically, non-surgically, hormonally, non-hormonally – they're very different experiences. And that's not to say that everybody who comes to the land has the same experience. I've been really afraid to say things like this because I get accused of being essentialist, and I just want to not have that fear, because maybe there are some truths, like maybe there are some essential truths (laughs) in that there are these constructs, and that some of us have suffered a particular plight based on them. And by the same token, I would defend a space in which you had to be trans-identified to be there, or you had to be born deaf, or you had to be a black Muslim male, etc. But I don't believe in a political structure that's separatist. So in the queer community, when it comes to political spaces and organizations that are about health care and organizations that are about more survivalist stuff, I think those places really, really need to be integrated.

AR. So, when you say that, you see Michigan as a cultural gathering, and you don't see it necessarily as a political gathering.

TRC. Exactly.

AR. And so, for that reason, you don't think that Michigan has to be... to embrace the...

TRC. Political things happen here. I mean, I think that's a really fuzzy thing...

AR. I mean they do, that's why I'm saying.

TRC. But they happen everywhere. I teach and they happen in the classroom, but what I'm doing is a cultural thing.

AR. Right.

TRC. I'm doing a job and it's cultural, but I'm a political teacher. I work in my magic, hopefully. I have my agenda, and I go in there, and I'm the first to admit it. But this is a cultural space that has a political identity attached to it, like that's how I think of it, which is different than something like, perhaps, Lesbian Avengers, right?

AR. But I wonder, do you think the intention behind Michigan, for so many people in the community, even if it wasn't its first intention, became political at some point- because it is such a movement, and a constant struggle against oppression?

TRC. I actually don't think so. I've spent a lot of time in Festi-land the last few times I've come here, basically for this reason. And talking to people and like driving the tractor, just being like "Hey where are you from? What are you doing?" And when I've been out there photographing this time, really kind of getting a feel for it, and who am I to say, but my feeling is that a majority of the women come here to have fun. (laughs). It's cultural. They don't come here to be like "What's the rape laws in your town? I want to start a da-da-da-da-da, how am I going to do it?" I mean the workshops and all that, it's important, but I really see it as a cultural experience.

B. Yeah, I like that distinction. I totally agree.

TRC. And that's different to me than a group of people getting together being like how are we gonna undo the system, how are we gonna fight the man, how are we gonna make legislative change, medical change, social change, economic change in the queer community in the world outside of here. That is a place where we have to really break down the barriers of transphobia for fucking sure. You know? And my ultimate thing, and the thing I said in the first public statement that I wrote to represent my record label was that I do not think that the policy is intrinsically, at its core, transphobic. And that's what it's been accused of, that the term "woman-born woman" itself is transphobic. That's what I have been told. Because what it says is it discludes as opposed to self-names, you know? Then I'm like, well "lesbian" is male-phobic, right? I mean, like I don't agree with that.

AR. But it's very convincing when you talk to a woman who has transitioned and they're so much a woman, and so much themselves in a way that they might not have been before they were able to transition, and so, to me, it's a very compelling argument. To sit in front of a woman, and talk to her, and she is even more of a woman than I feel like a woman. OK? That's the reality.

TRC. I've had that experience too. Like I'm dating somebody who doesn't think she should come, you know?

AR. I love being here, and I love women, but sometimes, I don't even feel like a woman.

B. But I believe, I don't want to say it, that's internalized self-loathing

AR. No, it's not self-loathing.

TRC. I don't think it's self-loathing, but I think it's a kind of internalized gender phobia.

AR. No, I love the idea... I love women.

TRC. But don't you think that's what's great about coming here...you know, is that you come and you're like that's a woman, that's a woman....

AR. Yeah. I love the woman part of me, but I guess I feel, it's hard to describe because you have to be in that space. No, I want to come and I think I should be here; I honor that part of me. But sometimes I'm just like wow, you know?

TRC. I have that experience sometimes in queer culture, like in the 80's when I would go to dyke stuff and I'd walk in as a fem, and I'd be like, I'd have that thing where... ‘Cause there was this whole kinda time in the eighties, you know the sort of Lesbian Avengers time, where you had the same haircut and leather jacket and stuff. I'd walk in, first of all, punk, there were punks, and I would be like I'm not a real queer, I'm not a real lesbian, I'm not a real, you know? So, on some level I think I know what you're saying.

AR. Daniela, you were saying you had a lot of friends that are trans, that were over in Camp Trans

D. Yeah, I mean I figure they're there. I'm from the punk community, so, for me, this place always seemed, until, I remember when Tribe 8 came, for us this place was not a place that most of my friends or generation wanted to be a part of, because we had all these assumptions. Well now looking back, I think it was some kind of ageism mixed with misogyny because in the general world, you know, men can really idolize some older guy and his traditions or whatever, but for my generation, or at least for my group of friends, like from my punk scene, we didn't think it was cool to like play a guitar, like acoustic guitar or like have long hair, we had all these things in my early twenties about it. And I didn't realize that I was being so exclusive in that way, and I realize now that it was just like this real, self-loathing, something like that. Because once I actually came here... and also the place changed a bit once they let Tribe 8 play and then Team Dresch played. People I knew had been here, but it always seemed like this insurgency. Like we'd go in this place that wasn't our space. But I think a lot of that was in our heads. I don't think that's really what was going on too much, I mean maybe, I don't know, cause the place has changed a lot.

AR. It's cultural.

D. It's cultural.

AR. I had the same experience with "women's music."

D. You did, right? Cause you felt, kind of like, that's not me.

AR. I mean Ferron was about the only person I could relate to, because she was like a Bob Dylan to me, you know. But I felt really aesthetically at odds with it, but then I realized also that it was sexism and homophobia.

TRC. Totally.

B. Me too.

D. Now I can sit around a fire and I can hear someone playing music that maybe I wouldn't particularly put it on my CD player but I can appreciate the moment. And a lot of that's coming from my whole life, and that's why this place is so important to me, because I've traveled a lot and I've lived, I haven't lived in one place for years and years, and I've lived in a lot of different countries, and I've seen a lot of stuff, and different parts of me opened up. But I never thought I could experience those parts here in the U.S. I always thought that here, in the U.S., everything had to be more, like, individualist, kind of, you know like someone couldn't just play the bongos badly and everybody would support them just because. You know it just felt like more dog eat dog, or something. And when I came here, I just felt like I could just be myself, whatever side of myself. And that is directly linked to people who are born as men not being here, in my psyche, in my mind. And it's my oppression, maybe in 200 years it won't have to be that way, because I agree, I've hung out with a lot of people who are, you know, more a woman than I am who were born as men, in a way. Like there's a side of me that comes out that's so beautiful when I'm around those people, and I'm free in a particular way around that. But for the healing that I need to go out into the world and be making the world a better place, this place is like totally vital for that.

AR. And did you all struggle with your trans friends and go through a time when you felt different about it, did everything just sort of evolve or did you always feel this way about it.

D. Well, for me, it's never settled and sometimes there is tension in the air. And it's not like it's all good now. I feel like most of my friends just understand that I'm doing what I need to do, and they may not agree with it, but they don't take it personally. They realize that I have to find my own path.

B. I mean just the fact that there's like something to not agree with is the thing that just drives me insane. Like what's there not to agree with? A certain group of this culture of people getting together for one week out of the year...

TRC. ...to shit in the woods.

B. Yeah, you know. What's there to not agree with?

AR. After my interview with a representative from Camp Trans, I heard two issues coming across from her. One thing is, there are so many people that gather here, I know you think of it as a cultural space, but she's looking at it as a political space, and she's saying there's so many people that gather here that go out into the world, that it's a springboard. And it may be a small gathering for just a few days, but the rest of the year all these people that come here can learn the policies here and then model their lives, non profits, and businesses on what goes here. She believes that it carries over into everything they do.

B. Yeah, I've heard that too.

AR. So that's one thing. And the other thing is that she believes that at this time, there's a real need for allies. And you've spoken to that, we don't want to have to take care of everybody and you know, women aren't allowed to say "no" kind of issue, but to her it's like we need allies. How can you say no to this person who is a woman.

TRC. I think the first part of that is the assuming this is a trans-hating space. And if we assume this is a trans-hating space, then, yeah, five-thousand women are going to leave the land and go create trans-hating policies. I don't have that experience here. I've had women, 60- 70-year-old women, say the most remarkable things to me about gender and transphobia, you know. And that totally undoes my assumptions, you know of who's like on the tip and who's not, you know. So again, like I was saying before, like going out into festi-land and hanging out with the people who are paying to come here and camp and see art, has really helped me too. And having these conversations and starting up dialogues with them and being like you know, there are people out there who are racist and sexist and transphobic, and there are a lot of people who aren't. And I think it's an oversimplification to say that people come to the land and go and take the policy.

B. Me too.

TRC. I think it's presented as a kind of sacred thing, a temporary thing, like it's temporal.

AR. Yeah, but she presents it as the holy mother. She believes Michigan is like the chalice for every women.

TRC. I think that's giving it too much...

B. It's putting too much pressure on it. It's like the super hero thing to do to moms.

TRC. It's like the cupcake thing that I was saying, that metaphor yesterday about the cupcake. It's like we're fighting over the crumb but the cupcake's walking by us.

D. I also think it's a smash-your-idol thing, like I can't help but see the correlation between people idolizing a star, or the weird ways you can hate someone that you love, or you kinda want to change what you love, I don't know...there's something there.

AR. Well, what about the ally issue? Is it up to them to just find their own allies, or is there a need for Michigan to step in and say we're allies.

TRC. I think that's happening. There were three workshops about gender.

AR. So you feel that Michigan's is being an ally to them in the way that it can.

D. It's helping me be an ally by being healed while I'm here. People who were born as men or trans people I know that don't want to come, I mean I feel like they can look and say this is healing you and it's making you a better person, I want to support that.

B. Yep. Why isn't that an ally action?

TRC. Like where are our allies? Like I've been the ally for fags, I've been the ally for men, I've been the ally for a lot of people. Like where are the allies for women-born women? Like who the fuck is that? We don't even have the Take Back the Night marches anymore that are all women, it's like we have to include men, because it's so sexist not to.

D. We're being erased.

TRC. What if we offered to help the trans community put on a festival, donate labor, like what if they came forward to Lisa or me or people who know way more than I do and said can I pick your brain? How do we do this?

B. With something FOR something, instead of against, against, against.

AR. But the dialogue does feel more open now. The difference in the past four years or five years, I see, well this time I see a marked difference, I really do.

D. I felt it just in the way people are talking about it

AR. Just talking to the person that's sort of the ambassador.

TRC. And that's great, that's progress...

B. I wanted to make one more comment about the ally thing. The metaphor I think of is like when a little kid really wants you to take them swimming again and you just went swimming three times, or whatever it is. They're like no, I want another popsicle or whatever. And at some point, if you need to rest, the best way you can take care of that child is to be like, no, I need to rest now, because otherwise, if I take you to the pool, if I just say yes and take you to the pool again, and I'm exhausted, I'm going to get all cranky at you.

AR. So there's no sense that these women could come in and bring something special to the festival that isn't here, a new perspective or something...

B. /TRC. Well of course they could.

AR. So is it all this feeling of burden, of like we have to take care, we have to help process, we have to do this...

TRC. They could, they totally could.

AR. From their perspective they're thinking, they have this thing to offer, a perspective that we could use here, you know.

D. You know, it's like I can't help but notice who takes up space. People come into my restaurant, we'll have women come in my restaurant, out lesbians, whatever, they'll come in, I'll sit them down at a table, they won't even look me in the eyes, ninety percent of the time. They can't even take up that much space. We're talking about people living in this society, coming out to dinner, and then we'll have like fags coming in and they'll just be like, "Hey, How's it going?" like completely in the space.

AR. And you think that doesn't change?

D. There's something about this place being only people who are born as women that we would want to take up that much space or feel free to, or something. We have to practice that.

TRC. I mean I think trans women would have a different, particular, unique thing to bring...

B. Of course.

TRC. ...that would be, I don't think it's just that they would be a burden or that they would flash their penises or anything. It's not anti "that," its just pro this other thing.

B. Right!

Interview #2

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